The memory of experiences, hurts, attachments, the whole of it. Can that come to an end? Of course it can. It can come to an end when...
Krishnamurti: The social conditioning, the religious conditioning, education, poverty, riches, climate, food; the outer. Which may condition the mind in a certain direction. But as one examines it a little more, the psychological conditioning is also from the outer, somewhat.
David Bohm: It is true that the way a person thinks is going to be affected by his whole set of relationships. But that doesn't explain why the conditioning is so rigid, and why it holds.
K: That is what I am asking too.
DB: Yes. If it were merely outward conditioning, one would expect it to be more easily changed. For example, you could have some other outward condition.
K: They have tried all that.
DB: Yes, the whole belief of Communism was that with a new society there would be a new man. But there have been none! I think that there is something fundamentally in the inward that holds, that resists change.
K: What is it? Will this question lead us anywhere?
DB: Unless we actually uncover it, it will lead nowhere.
K: I think one could find out, if one applied one's mind. I am just asking: is this question worthwhile, and is it related to what we have been discussing? Or shall we take up something else in relation to what we have been talking about?
DB: Well, I think that we have been talking of bringing about an ending to time, an ending to becoming. And we talked of coming into contact with the ground, through complete rationality. But now we could say that the mind is not rational.
K: Yes, we said man is basically irrational.
DB: This is perhaps part of the block. If we were completely rational, then we would of necessity come to this ground. Would that be right?
K: Yes. We were talking the other day about the ending of time. The scientists, through the investigation of matter, want to find out that point. Also, the so-called religious people have endeavored to find outânot only verballyâif time can stop. We went into that quite a bit, and we say it is possible for a human being, who will listen, to find out through insight the ending of time. Because insight is not memory. Memory is time, memory is experience, knowledge stored up in the brain, and so on. As long as that is in operation there is no possibility of having insight into anything. Total insight, not partial insight. The artist, the scientist, the musician, they all have partial insights and therefore they are still time-bound. Is it possible to have a total insight, which is the ending of the 'me', because the 'me' is time? Me, my ego, my resistance, my hurts, all that. Can that 'me end? It is only when that ends that there is total insight. That is what we discovered. And we went into the question, is it possible for a human being to end totally this whole structure of the 'me'? We said yes, and went into it. Very few people will listen to this because it is perhaps too frightening. And the question then arises: if the 'me' ends, what is there? Just emptiness? There is no interest in that. But if one is investigating without any sense of reward or punishment, then there is something. We say that something is total emptiness, which is energy and silence. Well, that sounds nice, but it has no meaning to an ordinary man who is serious and wants to go beyond it, beyond himself. And we pushed it further: is there something beyond all this? And we say there is.
DB: The ground.
K: The ground. Is it that the beginning of this inquiry is to listen? Will I, as a human being, give up my egocentric activity completely? What will make me move away from that? What will make a human being move away from this destructive, self-centered activity? If he will move away through reward, or punishment, then that is just another thought, motive. So discard that. Then what will make human beings renounce, if I may use the word renounce, it completely without motive? You see, man has tried everything in this directionâfasting, self-torture in various forms, abnegating himself through belief, and denying himself through identification with something greater. All the religious people have tried it, but the 'me' is still there.
In the early 1980s, J. Krishnamurti and theoretical physicist David Bohm began dialogues investigating the origin of human conflict and what one might do about the barriers that stand in the way of insight. The book The Ending of Time is a series of these dialogues that took place in America and England and covers some of the most comprehensive talks between Krishnamurti and Bohm. They discussed profound existential questions that illuminate the fundamental nature of existence, exploring topics such as insight, illusion, awakening, transcendence, and morality. The pair also looked at oneâs relationship to society and offer new perspectives on thought, death, awakening, self-realization, and the problem of the fragmented mind. The title of the book hints at humanityâs âwrong turnâ and the talks between Krishnamurti and Bohm explore if it is possible for one to fundamentally changeâsuggesting that transformation requires one to move beyond the separative and time-bound nature of the self. Click here to buy the book in English, or here to order it in Spanish.
Next month our upcoming online, in-depth study program Meditation and Action will be held from July 18 - 22. The program will be facilitated by John Duncan, whose interaction with Krishnamurti and his teachings began in 1984 when he attended public talks in Ojai. From then on he participated in many dialogue retreats and events at the foundation until he moved to Ojai in 1999 and began working at the KFA. This program is designed for anyone interested in going deeper into the topic of meditation that Krishnamurti pointed to in his numerous talks, discussions, and writings.
As our Spring Appeal comes to an end on June 17th, we would like to express our heartfelt thanks to all of our new and existing supporters. Donors like you help us provide unique in-person and online opportunities for learning and studying the teachings.
Sincerely,
Jaap Sluijter Executive Director
Meditation and Action Online Program July 18 - 22
What is meditation? When we meditate are we looking to achieve something, to get past something, to see something, feel something? In other words, is there a me separate from my meditation just as there is a me separate from my experience? And if so, is that what we refer to as meditation or is that merely observation, or more precisely mediation? We can learn from any experience, observation or flash of direct experience but when we explore the depths of the meaning of the word meditation what do we discover? What is action in this realm if not involving an actor?
I Want to Throw the Seeds All Over the World Our Spring Appeal
Our mission of disseminating the work of Krishnamurti through the Foundation, the Krishnamurti Center, and Oak Grove School, can only continue with your support.
Life is Relationship Online Program August 15 - 19
Krishnamurti stated that to exist is to be related. To relate is to be in contact as well as to respond adequately to the given situation so that the qualities of understanding and compassion nourish our existence. The quality of relationship is the same as the quality of our lives and to be related is to have no division and conflict; it is to love. But our usual experience reveals a veritable minefield that we are destined to traverse, leading to all manner of breakdowns and traumatic experiences. Our exploration of this topic, as viewed through Kâs sharp lens, is to become aware of the factors involved and responsible for our lives and the lives of others, as psychologically we are the world.
Oak Grove's latest student-led newspaper is available to read. Articles include subjects like The Death of Cinema and Why the SAT Should be Abolished. Additionally, the paper contains poetry, fine art, opinion, and more.
